My Loot, Your Tears

With the recent completion of the 3rd installment of the Hulkageddon last month, @CyberinEVE, author of Hands Off, My Loots!, asks: “Griefing is a very big part of EVE. Ninja Salvaging, Suicide Ganking, Trolling, and Scamming are all a very large part of the game. What do you think about all these things? You can talk about one, or all…but just let us know your overall opinion on Griefing, and any recommendations you may have to change it if you think it’s needed.”

Now, normally I don’t do the Blog Banter competitions, because, well, I’m lazy. However, seeing as I’m one of the “public faces” of the hi-sec Griefer scene, I’ve gotten about a dozen requests for my thoughts on this.

Most of the responses I’ve read to this Blog Banter have actually ignored the question entirely. Instead of posting their opinions on Ninja Salvaging, Suicide Ganking, Trolling, and Scamming, they’ve posted pages of text about how none of these activities are “Griefing”.

So I’m going to do something similar and ignore the actual question. Instead, let’s talk about words and what they mean. I’m thinking of a particular word: Piracy.

When an Eve player self-identifies as a Pirate, you know EXACTLY what he’s talking about: A player who hangs out in lowsec, looking for “good fights” against other “Pirates”. Sure, once in a while a foolish carebear stumbles into their domain, but for the most part Pirates are merely engaging with consensual PvP with other players of the same class. I’m not knocking it because I know it can be fun, but piracy it ain’t.

Being a pirate means preying on the unsuspecting, the weak, or the foolhardy. It seems to me that Ninja Salvaging, Suicide Ganking, and Scamming would fall neatly into the definition, while e-honor “good fight!” piracy would not.

So we call ourselves Griefers because our actions cause grief, not just as a byproduct but often as a primary objective. The truth of the matter is that a better term for us would be pirates, but that term was hijacked by low-security PvPers who had no real reason to use it. Folks are trying to deny us the title “Griefer” because our actions are within the intended mechanics of the game. This is missing the point entirely.

I understand the confusion, since in most MMOs, ruining someone else’s game is out of the question due both to rules and the game mechanics. In Eve, the universe is such a cold and unforgiving place that such behavior is not only allowed, but is required by a certain segment of the population in order for successes in the game by the law-abiding to have any meaning.

We’re Griefers. If you come up with a better title for those who prey on the weak in Eve, I’d love to hear it.

I’ve been away from the Jerk lifestyle for a while, trying some of the other things in EVE. One of the Ninja Alliance members, Meccros, had been making ISK from loan scams – which I had not tried – and I got the chance to try it out today. Hillarity resulted.

I was using one of my alts in Jita for some market manipulation when I saw someone in local requesting a loan:

Rothrizar > can someone lend me ISK for a ship?

I quickly convo’d him to see if I could pull one over on him.

Secret Alt > hi there
Secret Alt > you were looking for a loan?
Rothrizar > hello
Rothrizar > yes, im looking to get enough ISK to purchase the Raven and fit it
Secret Alt > And how are you paying back?
Rothrizar > I guess its not really a loan then lol
Secret Alt > I can loan you isk, if you’re willing to pay it back with a small amount extra, if you tell me how you’re making money
Secret Alt > are you missioning?
Rothrizar > thats what i was doing
Secret Alt > Hm, I see
Rothrizar > i was piloting a drakerunning lvl 3s
Secret Alt > do you have anything to offer as colateral?
Secret Alt > ah, ok
Secret Alt > you could offer the drake as collateral
Rothrizar > the only problem with that is, it doesnt exist anymore
Secret Alt > Hm.
Rothrizar > I have a primae over in eitu
Rothrizar > bout all i have left hehe
Secret Alt > Oh, that would work
Secret Alt > How much ISK are you looking for?
Rothrizar > 40 mil max
Secret Alt > Ok, I can do that.
Secret Alt > I’ll need to fly over to Eitu to set up the contract there
Secret Alt > standard loan contract
Secret Alt > Just don’t screw me over, ok? ;)
Rothrizar > I wont screw you over

With trust established, I head over to Eitu to take his Primae. Click below to read on =)

This is LONG, but totally worth the read.

(more…)

It’s been far too long. For a while there I had quit salvaging and was thinking about a long break from Eve altogether.

Talking to Khalia the other day, I decided to just grit my teeth and salvage until I got a kill, to see if the taste of CareBlood would return me to my Jerk ways.

It did. Meet Qhuashimides. He was running Worlds Collide in Ruvas in his faction-fit Golem when I popped in to say hello. He fired at me.

It’s been too long. I was about to cloud up and rain all over this guy.

He stayed put while I went to grab JerkTengu and return. He never checked his directional scanner as I burned 30km to the gate and warped into the Guristas room where he awaited his doom.

When he saw me, however, he apparently mashed Control-Q in an effort to get away.

This didn’t work. I had him locked and pointed before his very expensive CareBoat could CareAlign and CareGTFO. He soon logged back in and started firing back, but JerkTengu easily tanked his oversized Torpedoes. With a neut sucking on his capacitor and max-SP HAMs pouring into his shields, his tank broke before long.

Since he was now unmistakably online, I tried for another conversation.

Paul Clavet > o/
Paul Clavet > So how much is the ship worth to you?
Qhuashimides > i am listening
Qhuashimides > how much do you want?
Paul Clavet > Let’s say… 600M to let the ship go
Paul Clavet > I figure it’s worth that
Qhuashimides > ok\
Paul Clavet > 30S to pay

He was trying to stall for time.

Paul Clavet > I’m not going to wait for you to call in help
Qhuashimides > no
Qhuashimides > i am not
Paul Clavet > then pay up, you’re running out of time
Qhuashimides > you wqant how much
Paul Clavet > 600 million

A long pause. I know what he’s thinking.

Qhuashimides > and how i know you will no t pop me?
Paul Clavet > 20 seconds
Paul Clavet > this is how I make my living
Paul Clavet > if I dishonor a ransom, nobody else will pay

Carebears always ask me this, I always lie through my teeth, and they always believe me. Thank you, e-honour pirates, for perpetuating the myth that people who caught you once can be trusted afterward.

Qhuashimides > wait
Qhuashimides > i wont call anyone
Paul Clavet > I’m giving you another 10 seconds
Paul Clavet > then you die
Qhuashimides > ok?
Paul Clavet > Paying or not?
Qhuashimides > i payed you mate

No, he didn’t. Or did he? I check my wallet and see a 600,000 payment. Nice try. I click my HAM launcher group once, then again, sending a single volley to knock out a quarter of his structure. That seems to get his attention.

Qhuashimides > sorry
Qhuashimides > my mistake
Paul Clavet > 600k?
Paul Clavet > try again
Paul Clavet > last chance dude

Cha-ching. 600M appears in my wallet. I begin firing again.

Paul Clavet > SUDDENLY
Paul Clavet > BETRAYAL
Qhuashimides > ok
Qhuashimides > nice
Paul Clavet > yup
Paul Clavet > So then
Paul Clavet > what have we learned?

He is already offline again when his ship pops.

And here’s the killmail. Faction loot, but only about 100 million of it actually drops.

Edited to add: Oh yeah, I also got his Ship’s Crew.

In Ichoriya, I find a Rokh running faction missions. After taking a dozen 1M ISK tags, Saelii locks and fires. I warp off to the Orca, grab JerkTengu, and return. I open a convo with Saelii just as my warp disruptor engages.

Paul Clavet > 100M or your ship dies
Saelii > death is fine
Paul Clavet > fair enough

Confident, I see. As her shields vanish and her armor starts falling apart, I make the offer again.

Paul Clavet > It’s not too late, you could still save your ship…
Saelii > k
Saelii > you could still kill me if i give it to you
Paul Clavet > I could, but then I wouldn’t get any more business
Paul Clavet > Ransoms are more profitable

Allow me to paraphrase:

Victim: Why should I trust you?
Ganker: Because you should trust me.
Victim: OK, now I trust you.

Saelii pays. The result is inevitable.

Paul Clavet > SUDDENLY BETRAYAL
Saelii > let me go
Paul Clavet > No?

Pop.

Saelii > you got the money why you did not let me go?
Paul Clavet > Because I’m the CEO of Honorless Internet Jerks?
Saelii > fair

They never learn.

So I’m Jerking it up in Ichoriya when I see this in local:

Tebos > anyone want to help me out witha ninja?

Interesting. I should at least see what’s up with him. Maybe it’s someone I know, or maybe I can turn it into a griefing opportunity. I convo him with my Orca alt.

Semi-Secret Orca Alt > h8 ninjas
Semi-Secret Orca Alt > how can i help
Tebos > have one scramed and he scamed me
Tebos > cant hit his ass
Semi-Secret Orca Alt > lol
Tebos > he is in assult ship
Tebos > took out all my drones
Semi-Secret Orca Alt > is he killing you?
Tebos > he stoped firing
Tebos > im back to 10% dmg
Tebos > think he is waiting for corps mates to finish me off
Semi-Secret Orca Alt > what’s his name?
Tebos > Kaript344
Tebos > same one some folks were talking about

So I convo Kaript344 on my main to see if I can help him with the gank:

Paul Clavet > hey
Kaript344 > hey
Paul Clavet > my alt is in convo with your target
Paul Clavet > he thinks I’m helping him
Paul Clavet > but I want to help you with the gank
Paul Clavet > how can I help?
Kaript344 > no, thx)
Kaript344 > that’s fun
Kaript344 > :D

So it looks like Kaript doesn’t need my help. Oh well. I’m not going to take a chance on his target getting away if I can help it, and maybe I can pull off something even bigger…

A plan falls together that involves a trick I often use to get JerkTengu away from traps, much to my amusement and to the rage of my targets.

Tebos > any chance u can give me a hand?
Semi-Secret Orca Alt > how can I help? I don’t have aggro on him
Semi-Secret Orca Alt > what kinda ship are you in?
Tebos > ferox
Semi-Secret Orca Alt > OK, I have an orca
Semi-Secret Orca Alt > here’s the plan
Semi-Secret Orca Alt > I will warp to you, you swap the ferox for a shuttle
Semi-Secret Orca Alt > then warp away
Semi-Secret Orca Alt > we meet at station and you get your ferox back
Tebos > really that will work?
Tebos > im game
Semi-Secret Orca Alt > yeah, I do it in lowsec all the time
Tebos > to be done with this dip shit
Semi-Secret Orca Alt > lemme get the orca
Semi-Secret Orca Alt > fleet invite?

He sends me a fleet invite. His corpmate Eulysees Chelt is in the chat as well. I warp my Orca to the station and take all the loot and ships out of the holds so that he can’t steal anything from me. I undock the Orca and start the slooooow align to his mission.

Semi-Secret Orca Alt > OK dude here’s the deal
Tebos > ok
Semi-Secret Orca Alt > when I land, right click me and access the ship maint array
Semi-Secret Orca Alt > there’s a shuttle in there
Semi-Secret Orca Alt > right click it and board it
Semi-Secret Orca Alt > I have to be 2500M away, so I may have to burn to you
Semi-Secret Orca Alt > do you understand?
Semi-Secret Orca Alt > you have to warp away IMMEDIATELY or he will scram the shuttle
Eulysees Chelt > and t’s ship ?
Tebos > how long after u warp in?
Semi-Secret Orca Alt > as soon as I’m in range, warping now
Semi-Secret Orca Alt > fly toward me
Semi-Secret Orca Alt > OK, go ahead and right click me
Semi-Secret Orca Alt > open ship maint array
Semi-Secret Orca Alt > you won’t be able to board the shuttle until I’m 2k away
Semi-Secret Orca Alt > ok now

The shuttle vanishes, and in its place a Ferox battlecruiser appears. It will turn out to be T1 rigged and T2 fitted. Rule #2 of Eve Griefing: Secure your gains, then try for a little more.

Semi-Secret Orca Alt > warp out
Tebos > k
Semi-Secret Orca Alt > we saved your ship \o/
Eulysees Chelt > Semi-Secret Orca Alt……..what happens to the ship thats left behind ?
Semi-Secret Orca Alt > don’t suppose I get a reward? :-D
Semi-Secret Orca Alt > it didn’t get left behind, I’ve got it in my orca
Semi-Secret Orca Alt > will trade it to you at the station
Eulysees Chelt > ah ok
Eulysees Chelt > nice moves man
Tebos > wow that was cool…and yes u get reward man =)
Semi-Secret Orca Alt > :-D
Semi-Secret Orca Alt > how much do I get? :)
Eulysees Chelt > what you want ?
Tebos > how much u want bro?…u name the price
Eulysees Chelt > realistically
Semi-Secret Orca Alt > figure a ferox is worth 30m? Maybe 10m
Semi-Secret Orca Alt > brb
Tebos > i live with that…
Tebos > im at caldari
Tebos > ok man money transfered

Of course, he doesn’t ask for his ship back before he sends the reward. Rule #3 of Eve Griefing: Make sure your victim is fully aware of his loss.

Semi-Secret Orca Alt > thanks man
Semi-Secret Orca Alt > btw
Semi-Secret Orca Alt > thanks for the ferox too
Tebos > bah….
Tebos > awsome
Semi-Secret Orca Alt > heh heh
Semi-Secret Orca Alt > A mite bit too trusting, ain’t ya?
Semi-Secret Orca Alt > I’m the alt of Paul Clavet
Tebos > yes i am…but its my nature
Tebos > prob not a good idea in eve
Semi-Secret Orca Alt > right

I’ve got his money and his ship. Let’s implement Rule #2 again and try for more. The plan is to sell him what he thinks is his own ship back at what seems a reasonable price. It’s actually going to be an unfitted ship with the same name.

Semi-Secret Orca Alt > I’m open to offers if you wanna buy this thing back
Tebos > well lesson learned i quess
Semi-Secret Orca Alt > I can’t fly a ferox anyway
Tebos > any chance u can just give it back? =\
Semi-Secret Orca Alt > not really
Semi-Secret Orca Alt > but I’ll sell it to you for market price
Semi-Secret Orca Alt > plus a little for fittings… say 22 million?
Tebos > thats an expensive ferox
Semi-Secret Orca Alt > you must have fittings on it
Semi-Secret Orca Alt > that’s where you save the money
Tebos > hehe ur a good sales man
Semi-Secret Orca Alt > we have a deal?
Tebos > but i think i will cut my loses =|

Bah. It looks like he’s wised up. Most pinatas can only be struck so many times before the candy stops falling out.

His friend Eulysees tries to make a parting threat on his way out of the chat.

Eulysees Chelt > cmon man…you helped he payed what gives ?
Eulysees Chelt > you know you wanna watch your back my friend….one man team an all

A lot of really magical griefing moments can be had simply by keeping one’s eyes open for opportunities. If you can keep an open mind and think outside the box, you can leverage your capabilities against the unique situation of your victim to pull off effective but extremely situational capers.

As for Tebos, he learned a valuable and ultimately inexpensive lesson about trust in Eve. There is no such thing as a sure thing when it comes to dealing with people. The closest to total trustworthiness would be someone you know outside of the game who you can get your hands on… but even this is pushing it, since it’s not RL illegal to be a jerk to your friend in a video game. Think hard about this next time you’re taking a stranger’s offer to get you out of a bind, or the next time the new guy in your corp volunteers to do some grunt work that requires hangar access. Tebos and I chatted for a while after these events and he seems like a sincerely nice guy. I hope I’ve changed his mind a little bit about Eve and his playstyle options. I love tears, but I love it even more when I convert a carebear into a griefer. Maybe there’s a future in it for Tebos?

I found CadetBoot in his Hyperion and started eating up his tasty loot. A few minutes later, an Evemail arrives. What follows is the entire back and forth, edited for clarity.

I find this a perfect example of the reason I ninja salvage and other “dishonorable” activities: To disabuse those of the notion that Eve is a game that has anything to do with “honor” or “respect”. People who can’t tell a game from the real world need a reality check.

CadetBoot

YOu ruin the game for honest people

Khalia

What is this ‘honest’ thing you speak of?

CadetBoot

If you can’t figure that out then you prove my point

Khalia

*facepalm*

You need to train ‘Sarcasm and Insult Detection’ to level I.

CadetBoot

Then let’s try this. Stealing is not honest.

Khalia

Yes, and? I believe under the terms of the game you were free to open fire on me without CONCORD getting involved.

If CCP didn’t want stealing to happen, they’d have made it so you can’t open someone else’s can. Get used to it ;-)

CadetBoot

The difference between you and me is that you look to steal from others. I would never even consider it. Your actions gain you no respect. And in my world, respect matters. Just because the game allows it doesn’t mean you have to succumb to the temptation.

Consider this. If there were only your kind in the game, there would be no game.

Khalia

Why should I care? It’s a game. I can cheat, lie, scam, betray, kill and pillage. Apparently you are unable to distinguish between the real world and the online world?

If there were only men on the planet, there’d be no people. But just like your example, it’s a useless point. There *always* will be clueless people like you who think “honor” and “respect” matter in a game about internet spaceships.

Go back to WoW or Hello Kitty Online.

CadetBoot

I didn’t expect my comments to change your mind about your gameplay. And it didn’t. So be it. But hopefully one day you’ll realize that honor and respect always matter, regardless of the situation.

The end.

Yes folks, always remember: Computer games are the same as the real world.

So I’m poking along in my Vigil, cleaning up the last of my scan hits. I warp to a Dominix hit that is half an hour old, nearly guaranteeing that the goods will be long gone when I arrive. Only in this case, what I find is a Dominix tractoring a can called “Tugboat”.

I speed over to the can, which is full of loot and salvage, flip it, and immediately start my Orca pilot warping in to scoop it. I expect nothing more than a silent warp-off or maybe some mild tears, but just as the Orca finishes aligning and leaps into warp, the Dominix locks and fires upon my main’s vigil.

The Orca lands and I improvise, speed-swapping my Vigil for JerkTengu, then falling into a 10km orbit around the Domi and engaging my warp disruptor. After changing to explosive damage, it’s clear that he will have to run his reppers full-out to keep up, and his capacitor just wasn’t going to take it. It’s usually futile to try to ransom dirt-cheap Dominixes, but it’s also usually useless to try to get them to shoot at you, too, so I try.

[ 2010.01.15 06:05:40 ] Paul Clavet > o/
[ 2010.01.15 06:05:45 ] Paul Clavet > 100M or your ship dies
[ 2010.01.15 06:05:51 ] STWizard > damn, i didn’t know that was a tech3
[ 2010.01.15 06:05:56 ] Paul Clavet > I am of course open to counter-offers
[ 2010.01.15 06:06:11 ] STWizard > crap i thougt i was fighting a tech 1 ship
[ 2010.01.15 06:06:23 ] Paul Clavet > You going to pay up, or just die hilariously?
[ 2010.01.15 06:06:26 ] STWizard > i cant afford to loose this ship
[ 2010.01.15 06:06:32 ] Paul Clavet > How much are you willing to pay?
[ 2010.01.15 06:06:33 ] STWizard > how much?
[ 2010.01.15 06:07:09 ] Paul Clavet > 100 million

Ding. He pays. I resume firing.

[ 2010.01.15 06:07:43 ] STWizard > was that right?
[ 2010.01.15 06:07:47 ] STWizard > damn
[ 2010.01.15 06:07:52 ] Paul Clavet > BETRAYAL
[ 2010.01.15 06:08:10 ] STWizard > please let ship go
[ 2010.01.15 06:08:21 ] Paul Clavet > send 50M more and I’ll let you go
[ 2010.01.15 06:08:40 ] STWizard > ok
[ 2010.01.15 06:08:47 ] STWizard > can you let ship go please
[ 2010.01.15 06:09:04 ] Paul Clavet > for 50M, yes

Of course, I once again resume firing.

Boom.

[ 2010.01.15 06:09:29 ] STWizard > it is done
[ 2010.01.15 06:09:30 ] Paul Clavet > OMG, you are about as dumb as a box of rocks
[ 2010.01.15 06:09:53 ] STWizard > i am not a pvper
[ 2010.01.15 06:10:10 ] Paul Clavet > Apparently not
[ 2010.01.15 06:10:22 ] STWizard > why are you not honoring your aggreement?
[ 2010.01.15 06:10:33 ] Paul Clavet > Because I’m an Honorless Internet Jerk
[ 2010.01.15 06:11:40 ] Paul Clavet > so what have you learned?
[ 2010.01.15 06:12:10 ] STWizard > not to give money to piratess
[ 2010.01.15 06:12:15 ] Paul Clavet > I’m not a pirate
[ 2010.01.15 06:12:22 ] Paul Clavet > I’m a Jerk
[ 2010.01.15 06:13:08 ] STWizard > you stole my loot then killed my ship after extorting money, thats about as good a definition of piracy as i can think of
[ 2010.01.15 06:13:38 ] Paul Clavet > no no no, pirates go to lowsec and fight with honour
[ 2010.01.15 06:13:42 ] STWizard > what was I supposed to learn
[ 2010.01.15 06:14:15 ] STWizard > ok
[ 2010.01.15 06:14:31 ] Paul Clavet > That’ll be your homework for the week. I want 500 words on what you learned today, typed, in my office by Monday
[ 2010.01.15 06:14:32 ] STWizard > so then what you did was worse?
[ 2010.01.15 06:15:18 ] Paul Clavet > It was better for me, pirates usually have to choose between the loot and the ransom
[ 2010.01.15 06:15:23 ] Paul Clavet > I got both! See how neat that is?
[ 2010.01.15 06:16:05 ] STWizard > ok, so what would you have done?
[ 2010.01.15 06:16:27 ] STWizard > in a mission ship without countermeasures, and a scrambler
[ 2010.01.15 06:16:33 ] STWizard > against a tech3 ship
[ 2010.01.15 06:16:44 ] STWizard > nice tactic, btw
[ 2010.01.15 06:16:58 ] STWizard > i was wondering how i was gonna get that haul back to the station
[ 2010.01.15 06:17:13 ] STWizard > i like the tengu in the orca thing
[ 2010.01.15 06:18:14 ] STWizard > i did not like the loss of 150M plus my ship which i was comming to really care for
[ 2010.01.15 06:19:26 ] STWizard > so what would you have done in my shoes there?
[ 2010.01.15 06:19:48 ] Paul Clavet > Probably go buy a padded helmet and water wings?
[ 2010.01.15 06:21:41 ] STWizard > seriously, at least help me to understand what i did wrong
[ 2010.01.15 06:22:15 ] Paul Clavet > I’m not going to help you do your homework, Tyrone. I want that essay on my desk come monday morning, or you will find yourself failing this block of instruction.
[ 2010.01.15 06:26:27 ] STWizard > hmmm, ok. I see how its gonna be, so you are going to play the honorless thing thru. Thats cool.
[ 2010.01.15 06:27:43 ] Paul Clavet > I like to think it is.

From here, I hang around to try to extract tears and intel for a wardec. Hang in there, there’s more lulz to be had.

[ 2010.01.15 06:27:54 ] STWizard > i have never faced a tech3 ship b4
[ 2010.01.15 06:28:10 ] Paul Clavet > I wouldn’t say you faced this one per se
[ 2010.01.15 06:29:02 ] STWizard > i did for a little while till i reaized what i was, then i tried to run, hehehe
[ 2010.01.15 06:29:33 ] STWizard > what i saw was your prober ship
[ 2010.01.15 06:30:26 ] STWizard > although i was a little confused at first as to how you were gonna get the can away, till the orca showed up
[ 2010.01.15 06:31:01 ] STWizard > hehehe, then out pops the tengu and well that was bad cuz i didn’t even know what i was fighting till i saw it wasn’t dying
[ 2010.01.15 06:32:22 ] STWizard > my ship did better than i expected tho. tho with an orca you have the decided advantage.. if i had a scrambler i would have locked the orca and tried to get it, but it’s prolly tanked too
[ 2010.01.15 06:33:58 ] STWizard > if i asked you to meet me in the station for the other 50M would it have worked?
[ 2010.01.15 06:36:59 ] Paul Clavet > I just read the things you typed, and I don’t even know where to start
[ 2010.01.15 06:37:20 ] Paul Clavet > Basically, I weep for your future and hope that you’ll give me your stuff when you finally quit.
[ 2010.01.15 06:38:25 ] STWizard > that bad, eh?
[ 2010.01.15 06:38:49 ] Paul Clavet > Yeah, man. Pretty bad.
[ 2010.01.15 06:38:58 ] Paul Clavet > Please go take an Agony Unleashed class or something
[ 2010.01.15 06:39:04 ] STWizard > before i quit, there will be nothing left
[ 2010.01.15 06:39:12 ] Paul Clavet > because you misunderstand a great many fundamental things
[ 2010.01.15 06:39:41 ] STWizard > well i am not used to being lied to
[ 2010.01.15 06:39:58 ] STWizard > i tell the truth and expect the same, usually
[ 2010.01.15 06:40:14 ] Paul Clavet > Then Eve may not be for you
[ 2010.01.15 06:40:26 ] STWizard > but i have learned this, not everyone is like that
[ 2010.01.15 06:40:33 ] STWizard > I will adapt
[ 2010.01.15 06:40:44 ] STWizard > I like this game
[ 2010.01.15 06:41:55 ] STWizard > come in contact with people who are free to do things they are not really free to do in life
[ 2010.01.15 06:42:21 ] Paul Clavet > Yep, I’m actually a terrible person IRL but can only show my true colors here
[ 2010.01.15 06:42:52 ] STWizard > that is precicely what i was getting at
[ 2010.01.15 06:43:34 ] Paul Clavet > Truly you are a masterful judge of character
[ 2010.01.15 06:43:37 ] STWizard > in a way, here you get to see what people would really be like if life would let them
[ 2010.01.15 06:43:48 ] STWizard > no i am not
[ 2010.01.15 06:44:01 ] Paul Clavet > The dark passages of my heart are laid bare before your seering judgment
[ 2010.01.15 06:44:09 ] STWizard > but i am pretty good at analysis of data and facts and events
[ 2010.01.15 06:44:27 ] Paul Clavet > Wreched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of unrighteousness?
[ 2010.01.15 06:44:42 ] STWizard > if i was a good judge of character, i would have let the ship go and kept the 150M
[ 2010.01.15 06:45:42 ] STWizard > what i do know, is that money both in eve and IRL is a good way to find out what people are about
[ 2010.01.15 06:45:48 ] Paul Clavet > If you were a good judge of anything you would have not sent me more money after I betrayed you once
[ 2010.01.15 06:47:47 ] STWizard > I am soooo not used to betrayal
[ 2010.01.15 06:48:53 ] STWizard > as i said in my part of the real world the people i associate with have honor
[ 2010.01.15 06:49:12 ] Paul Clavet > I see
[ 2010.01.15 06:49:23 ] STWizard > if i had read your bio, and the name of the corp, i would not have sent the first 100M
[ 2010.01.15 06:49:38 ] STWizard > much less the second. it is pretty plain
[ 2010.01.15 06:50:05 ] Paul Clavet > I thought you were an excellent judge of facts and events?
[ 2010.01.15 06:50:49 ] STWizard > the good news is that you were at least honest about being honorless, hehehe
[ 2010.01.15 06:51:03 ] STWizard > not judge, analysis
[ 2010.01.15 06:51:37 ] STWizard > i was negotiating, and not checking you out
[ 2010.01.15 06:51:54 ] STWizard > i didn’t see the corp till i was in station in my capsule, hehehe
[ 2010.01.15 06:52:05 ] Paul Clavet > So when you make a deal, the other party starts shooting anyway, you still trust them to be honest in the NEXT deal?
[ 2010.01.15 06:52:11 ] STWizard > was busy fighting and calling out for help
[ 2010.01.15 06:52:58 ] Paul Clavet > Most of your corpmates run missions as well?
[ 2010.01.15 06:53:36 ] STWizard > sometimes one can appeal to reason and people sometimes act in magnamity mercifully
[ 2010.01.15 06:54:04 ] STWizard > most of them do, but they are more advanced than i
[ 2010.01.15 06:54:09 ] STWizard > in the game
[ 2010.01.15 06:55:24 ] Paul Clavet > Where do most of them hang out?
[ 2010.01.15 06:57:08 ] STWizard > we really act independantly most of the time, today i was doing missions with a corpmate then he left and i did on on my own
[ 2010.01.15 06:57:26 ] STWizard > and was salfaging, oh, shit i gotta turn that one in, hehehe
[ 2010.01.15 06:57:34 ] Paul Clavet > do you guys have a website or anything?

Remember when I told you it would get better? Well, here it is!

[ 2010.01.15 06:58:43 ] STWizard > dude, did you get the reports? I need them to turn in the mission
[ 2010.01.15 06:59:06 ] Paul Clavet > tee hee
[ 2010.01.15 07:00:45 ] STWizard > wow, that was a total win, hehehe, you did good on this one, I can’t believe how vulnerable i was.
[ 2010.01.15 07:01:24 ] STWizard > please trade the reports
[ 2010.01.15 07:01:46 ] Paul Clavet > That will be 20 million ISK, please.
[ 2010.01.15 07:01:51 ] Paul Clavet > Otherwise you’ll have to fail the mission
[ 2010.01.15 07:02:50 ] STWizard > dude, the mission bonus is 500,000
[ 2010.01.15 07:03:04 ] Paul Clavet > but you’ll take a faction hit.
[ 2010.01.15 07:03:09 ] Paul Clavet > How much are they worth to you?
[ 2010.01.15 07:04:08 ] STWizard > they are worth the mission bonus to me, 504,000, i will just do more missons to get the standings, how much of a hit? Never failed a mission before
[ 2010.01.15 07:04:43 ] Paul Clavet > enough that it’ll take about ten missions to regain them
[ 2010.01.15 07:04:49 ] Paul Clavet > more if it’s a storyline
[ 2010.01.15 07:04:52 ] Paul Clavet > but I don’t think yours was
[ 2010.01.15 07:05:08 ] Paul Clavet > Tell you what
[ 2010.01.15 07:05:09 ] Paul Clavet > 10M
[ 2010.01.15 07:05:13 ] Paul Clavet > I’m about to go to bed
[ 2010.01.15 07:05:15 ] STWizard > ok, all of the isk, the other part, the reward is 442,000, i will add that, and just take the LP and keep faction
[ 2010.01.15 07:05:41 ] Paul Clavet > 10 million or I’ll just add them to my trophy collection and let you fail your mission
[ 2010.01.15 07:05:48 ] Paul Clavet > depends on what your time is worth, up to you
[ 2010.01.15 07:06:03 ] STWizard > alright, 10M
[ 2010.01.15 07:06:12 ] STWizard > damn, you are tough

For the uninitiated: Keep in mind that Reports is not a unique item, but rather can be bought for essentially pennies off the market.

That’s about it for the actual story. I’ll include the rest of the chat log here if you want to see more boneheadedness on his part, but it’s not anything that you couldn’t get from any other PLEX-selling underachiever.

One of the few Eve bloggers on my RSS feed is a pirate by the name of Hallan Turrek, who writes for A Merry Life and a Short One. He recently posted an entry about E-honor entitled Giving In:

Honor isn’t something to be poked fun at. I see folks making jokes about the kinds of people that use real world principles in an online game. E-Honor they call it.

I don’t use real world principles in an online game, I use real world principles.

Hallan, do you also refuse to bluff in poker because you’re an honest person?

I’ve said it before, and I’ll say it again: If CCP wanted to create a game in which formal ransoms and duels were possible, they would have codified it in the rules of Eve Online. Instead, they made a cold, hard sandbox where there is no single ultimate objective and a player can actualize himself in any way he wants. If you look at the original retail packaging for the game, you’ll see that one of the selling points is that Eve is a world where deceit and treachery is always a possibility on every level of player interaction.

I’m sick and tired of the artificial constructs that are the “1v1″ and the “ransom” being held aloft as unwritten rules that should be followed by all, under pain of social ostracism. It’s no more valid than my demanding that all ninja salvagers should loot if they want to follow the One True Way, or declaring that it’s obvious that those who run missions are obviously cowards in real life. There’s a nugget of distaste on my part for both those cases, but they pay their subscriptions and play the game they want to play. Not only is it not my place to call for a codification of my preferences, but to imply that they are of a lower ethical or intellectual quality out-of-game because of their in-game persona would make me a real-life asshole.

Now, if a player wants to honor ransoms, and build their reputation and that of themselves to the point of being able to integrate the trust of victims to honor such ransoms into their business model, then I salute them. With no in-game rules to ensure their honesty, to have their reputation developed to the point that people just hand them money in exchange for some words in a chat window is quite an accomplishment.

THAT makes sense. Trust is earned, not granted by default. Such a business model works great for pirates like Hallan, but I exist in Eve almost exclusively for the purpose of tricking carebears into doing something foolish and then causing them to lose something they weren’t really wanting to risk. By the time I’ve landed in a mission and warp scrambled a PvE battleship, my hand has been played, and it’s highly unlikely that the victim will ever fall for my ruse again. In my case, why on earth would I do anything other than take the victim for as much as I possibly can?

What’s that? Because I’m supposed to be a good and honest person IRL? Well, if that’s the standard, would a truly honorable person trap and kill a battleship wandering into lowsec to run a mission or do some ratting? It’s an unfair question, right? I mean, the victim of the pirate should have known the risks before he ventured into low/nullsec.

But let’s keep the question in play. If you think it’s OK for you to victimize the ignorant or careless, and your in-game standards are identical to your out-of-game standards, then you certainly wouldn’t have any moral obligation to return a purse left under a seat in your subway car, right?

My point here is pretty obvious. You can poo-poo the “it’s just a game” line, but it really is just. a. game. The rules are different because everyone either knows or should know coming into it that because their character and assets exist only as bits on a server in Iceland, anything that someone else does to those bits within the formal Terms of Service is fair game. You can either accept that reality and come play in the sandbox, or go to another game where people are mandated by the rules of the game to be nice to the folks they’re hacking to death.

I respect that some folks play differently. That’s just not me, and I hope we can see more respect for my kind of mindset in the future.

I honor ransoms. I honor duels. I do what I say I’m going to do. If I don’t, I can’t pretend it’s just my character doing it, because I know better.

In the first line, you claim to respect those who don’t adhere to your arbitrary in-game morality standard. In the next line, you imply that the ethics of the avatar are inseparable from those of the player. That doesn’t sound much like respect to me, it sounds like an attempt to make yourself feel better about your judgmental attitude and double-standard.

You might not agree, but leave me alone about it.

Good Day

Sorry, but those who live in glass houses (blogs) shouldn’t throw stones (moral judgements) and expect to escape unscathed.

Here’s a tip that actually does apply equally well in-game and out-of-game: When someone points out a double standard in your code of ethics, it’s usually a good idea to stop making moral judgements until you have that sorted out.

Merry Christmas!